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It's Cosh vs. Jon Kay in Wednesday's National Post; after a nerf-bat fight over possibly-crypto-creationist science minister Gary Goodyear in the morning meeting, we decided to do a point-counterpoint for today's editorial page. Jon's piece is here, mine's here, and there's a disappointingly peaceable matching podcast on the way [UPDATE, 4:29 pm: that's now here].
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Comments (22)
"some have expressed concern that Mr. Goodyear, a chiropractor from Cambridge, Ont., is suspicious of science, perhaps because he is a creationist"
Yes, or perhaps because he is a chiropractor. I figured that little nugget wouldn't escape your comment.
Posted by Matt | March 18, 2009 3:47 PM
Posted on March 18, 2009 15:47
Dude, video.
Posted by Crid [cridcridatgmail] | March 18, 2009 5:11 PM
Posted on March 18, 2009 17:11
Of what??
Posted by Colby Cosh | March 18, 2009 5:13 PM
Posted on March 18, 2009 17:13
Participants. Blogginghead, LaPorte, etc.
Posted by Crid [cridcridatgmail] | March 18, 2009 5:39 PM
Posted on March 18, 2009 17:39
Dig you get someone to phone in for you? Or we're you calling from the bottom of a well?
That sounds nothing like you.
_Ian_
Posted by Ian | March 18, 2009 6:49 PM
Posted on March 18, 2009 18:49
I don't really know how I'm supposed to react to that.
Posted by Colby Cosh | March 18, 2009 6:55 PM
Posted on March 18, 2009 18:55
Whoa! I didn't care about the creationism thing, but the dude's a chiropractor? Ask him about friggin' subluxations so the medical community can get in on some outrage.
Posted by Geoff | March 18, 2009 8:10 PM
Posted on March 18, 2009 20:10
Yeah, I noticed that, too. Funny thing is, after a car accident I was involved in, I had an out-of-alignment spine which was making it difficult to breathe. Only a chiro was able to help — and I was referred to this chiro by my family doc. One visit and I could breathe (and sleep!) again.
Some chiros are nuts, but based on my experience, others can be quite helpful.
Posted by Garth Wood | March 19, 2009 6:37 AM
Posted on March 19, 2009 06:37
Ask your helpful chiropractor if he will have a go at curing your infant child's colic or asthma. He may say "No", but many still say "Yes".
Posted by Colby Cosh | March 19, 2009 7:59 AM
Posted on March 19, 2009 07:59
They may exaggerate their abilities, and may even be unwilling to submit to double-blind studies, but I'm willing to wager a buck, ye mighty God of statistical prowess, that the back-crackers, on average, kill far fewer patients than the mighty M.D.'s. I'm speaking of studies related to errors and gross negligence.
The witch doctors may even stray into asthma and colic treatments, but not many chiropractors are shills for the pharmaceutical companies.They will, mind you, push herbal/natural treatments which may not be any better...
As an aside, with family and friends on both sides of the great divide, I've always found the M.D.s to have an over-inflated sense of their own knowledge about all things. I always got the impression from medical doctors that they believed that their M.D. covered all the natural and social sciences...
Finally, given the history of medicine, who is to say that in thirty years that which we believe to be quackery in the here and now will not be seen as advanced and appropriate medicine?
Posted by tomtuttle | March 19, 2009 10:58 AM
Posted on March 19, 2009 10:58
> the back-crackers, on average,
> kill far fewer patients than
> the mighty M.D.'s
Is abject death the standard for health care up there?
Posted by Crid [cridcridatgmail] | March 19, 2009 1:23 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 13:23
Yes, there are some bonkers chiropractors out there. But there is a substantial scientifically-legitimate chiropractic profession, and there is also no shortage of bonkers doctors. The presumption that a chiropractor is unscientific or hostile to science is just as bogus as the presumption that a Christian is. They're both pure bigotry.
Posted by ebt | March 19, 2009 2:45 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 14:45
"Bigotry"? Really? It's bigotry to prefer the germ theory of disease to the theory of spinal subluxations?
Posted by Colby Cosh | March 19, 2009 2:54 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 14:54
They may exaggerate their abilities, and may even be unwilling to submit to double-blind studies, but I'm willing to wager a buck, ye mighty God of statistical prowess, that the back-crackers, on average, kill far fewer patients than the mighty M.D.'s.
Ear-candlers kill fewer still. So let's call them doctors and pay them out of our company health plans.
Posted by Anonymous | March 19, 2009 4:05 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 16:05
Putting stupid words in my mouth is an ugly habit, and beneath you. If you can't read what I said, so what? Other people can. Shut up and let them.
Posted by ebt | March 19, 2009 4:05 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 16:05
> "Bigotry"? Really?
I knew that was worth at least one really.
Y'know, you don't have to admire modern medicine unreservedly to believe that the ten-year pummeling it gives to young practitioners improves their minds to a finer degree than does the "substantial scientifically-legitimate chiropractic profession". Maybe the bone-twitchers have their purposes, as many MDs concede. But when the shit hits the fan, I'm calling a doctor first.
Posted by Crid [cridcridatgmail] | March 19, 2009 4:08 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 16:08
EBT, I didn't put the stupid word "bigotry" in your mouth, but if necessary, I'll admit to being "bigoted" against astronomers and alchemists, too. It is not a "presumption", but a fact, that chiropractic fought and denounced so-called "allopathic medicine" for about a hundred years; lately a certain quantity of the profession has belatedly come to see the scientific label as desirable, but its self-policing has not managed to exclude the fully-licensed "bonkers" practitioners who still apply some form of the whacked-out theories of Palmer (i.e., the ones on which the whole enterprise is historically based). Moreover, the role of chiropractors in promoting noxious anti-vaccination fairy-tales is well documented, and it's not clear that a strictly evidence-based chiropractor would be able to claim effectiveness beyond sham therapy or non-chiropractic spine manipulation for anything he does.
Posted by Colby Cosh | March 19, 2009 4:35 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 16:35
Crid:
I did call the doctor first. He said "I can do nothing for you," and referred me on to someone who could.
Now that's a doctor. Haven't found anyone like him since I moved from Edmonton to Calgary...
Garth
Posted by Garth Wood | March 19, 2009 4:56 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 16:56
...if necessary, I'll admit to being "bigoted" against astronomers and alchemists, too.
What the hell do you have against astronomers?
Posted by Matt | March 19, 2009 5:05 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 17:05
WHOOPS. That should read "astrologers". I've always gotten along pretty well with astronomers.
Posted by Colby Cosh | March 19, 2009 5:13 PM
Posted on March 19, 2009 17:13
Now, me, I'm bigoted against astronomers. Lousy star-geeks, ruining the night for the rest of us. If my daughter were ever to marry one of those funny-talking telescope-heads, I'd disown her. Back in my salad days, a few of my friends and I would go to the nearest observatory and burn a wooden quasar on their lawn. You should have seen them get out their slide rules then. Ah, the good old days.
Posted by BruceR | March 21, 2009 1:49 PM
Posted on March 21, 2009 13:49
That's either a Steve Martin quote or the best Steve Martin imitation I've ever seen.
Posted by Colby Cosh | March 21, 2009 3:14 PM
Posted on March 21, 2009 15:14